Trump's Independent Voter Problem
Plus: A listener asks about possible book club books that are "subtly libertarian."
In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Peter Suderman, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and Matt Welch discuss how many current political frustrations— with tariffs, executive overreach, and economic stagnation—are vindicating longstanding libertarian critiques, even as the public resists identifying as libertarian. They also explore Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s "Make America Healthy Again" agenda.
1:34—Libertarians were right
10:06—The best case for libertarianism in the Trump era
16:52—Are the Democrats pushing a libertarian-ish agenda?
24:40—Tech leaders regret supporting President Donald Trump?
39:47—Weekly listener question: What books should libertarian ladies suggest to their book club?
47:39— What is RFK Jr. doing to "Make America Healthy Again"?
59:03— Weekly cultural recommendations
We're hiring a producer for this show, find more information and submit your application here.
Mentioned in this podcast:
"The Libertarian Moment," by Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch
"The Libertarian Movement Needs a Kick in the Pants," by Nick Gillespie
"Are Seed Oils Actually Bad for You?" by Alice Callahan
"Food Freedom Is Personal Freedom," by Jeffrey A. Singer
"Alton Brown: A Culinary Legend Offers Food for Thought," by Nick Gillespie
"Nick Gillespie's Last Meal," by Tom Nash
"[Lexi Freiman's The Book of Ayn] Punches up, down, and all around town. A great Xmas gift for Objectivists and Red Scare communistas alike, if such ppl exchange gifts," by Nick Gillespie
"The Big U," by Neal Stephenson
"How Media and Public Health Failed Our Kids (w/ David Zweig)," by Matt Welch
"In Covid's Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us," by Stephen Macedo and Frances E. Lee
"Trump's Understanding of Due Process Is Just As Farcical As His Definition of 'Alien Enemies,'" by Jacob Sullum
"As the Economy Tumbles, so Does Trump's Approval Rate," by Matthew Petti
"Will the 'Abundance' Agenda Make California Great Again?" By Steven Greenhut
"Is This Constitutional? Here's How Due Process Works," by Billy Binion
"By Openly Retaliating Against Disfavored Law Firms, Trump Attacks Free Speech and the Right to Counsel," by Jacob Sullum
"The Trump Administration Continues To Attack Due Process," by C.J. Ciaramella
"George Will: Brace Yourself for Donald Trump & the Authoritarian Moment," by Todd Krainin, Nick Gillespie, and Matt Welch
"DOGE Has Been a Smashing Success," by Christian Britschgi
"We Don't Need RFK Jr. To 'Make America Healthy Again,'" by Kelvey Vander Hart
"Reopen the Schools!" By Robby Soave
"The Accountant 2 Is a Shaggy, Silly Bro-Hangout Movie," by Peter Suderman
Upcoming Reason events:
Reason Speakeasy: Robert Rosenkranz on The Stoic Capitalist, May 7, 2025
The Soho Forum Debate: Dave Smith vs. Alex Nowrasteh on Immigration, May 21, 2025
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- Video Editor: Ian Keyser
What are we consuming this week?
Katherine Mangu-Ward
- Hot dog empanada from the lady who is sometimes at the corner of Connecticut Ave. and Jefferson Pl.
Matt Welch
Peter Suderman
Nick Gillespie
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“The Subtle Libertarian” is the name of my next romance novel.
The Libertine Women of Reason is my next DVD release.
The Wisdom of Reason Editors is the title of my new comedy album. Actually it’s a single.
^+1. And Sullum ended up on the cutting-room floor.
He leaned against the bar, casually flipping a gold coin through his fingers, hoping she’d notice. “You know,” he said with a wink so subtle it barely registered, “I’m not saying the government shouldn’t interfere with matters of the heart… but if it does, I’d prefer a voluntary transaction with minimal regulatory oversight.” She smiled politely, and he pressed on, handing her a homemade business card that simply read ‘Self-Owner.’ “If you’re ever interested,” he whispered conspiratorially, “I know a great place where the drinks are free — well, not free free — more like free market free.”
She tossed her mane and and gave him a penetrating stare, “Freedom isn’t free”.
Maintaining his composure he replied “Right, it costs a buck oh five. But there’s a tariff free shop at the airport and I live in a van across the road down by the river.”
She paused for what felt like a full minute. “Alright Mr. Libertarian. Vindicate me.”
He straightened his leather jacket and they emerged together into the twilight. What came after is the stuff of legend but it’s said that they enjoyed a libertarian moment that night.
Meanwhile, somewhere in the Middle East:
“U.S. Jet Fighter Is Lost Overboard in Latest Mishap Involving Aircraft Carrier”
Chicks, right?
“The F/A-18E was actively under tow in the hangar bay when the move crew lost control of the aircraft. The aircraft and tow tractor were lost overboard”
If they were reversing into a parking place, then chicks for sure.
USS Midway CV-41, 73-76. One time in the WestPac, we were going through some nasty weather. I was in the hangar bay chow line when they brought an F-4 down the aft port elevator with a huffer on the front landing gear. Ship caught a wave and rolled a little to port, the plane and huffer slid a little backwards, the huffer driver abandoned the huffer, the plane stopped with what looked like just a few feet from main gear to the edge of the elevator, but it was a lousy angle from the chow line. Ship rolled back starboard, the huffer driver jumped back in and pulled the plane into the hangar. It was all over so fast that I’m still not entirely sure of the exact sequence of events, but there were a bunch of us wondering how close that F-4 came to taking a permanent bath.
I bet the guy in the cockpit was not amused. I don’t know how F-4 brakes work without power, if he stopped its slide or the ship roll back to starboard stopped it, but I bet the guy in the cockpit made sure the huffer driver understood that they were in it together next time.
Asian chick? It all makes sense now.
Probably got blindfolded with dental floss somehow,
Almost certainly. Broads can’t drive.
Hey Maverick, where’s your ride?
I bet the pilot is getting razzed over it too.
Reversing? I’ve probably been asked more than a dozen times “What’s a chock?”, never by someone with a Y-chromosome.
Trained in the biological sciences as I am, my best guess is that there’s a weighted graph that roughly translates to “chock = stop that shit from rolling away and destroying something” embedded in the genes of the Y-chromosome somewhere. Women’s brains absolutely can learn it, but most male brains seem to just automatically here “chock” and “tire” and translate “immobilize”.
16:52—Are the Democrats pushing a libertarian-ish agenda?
Keep the hope alive!
Censorship.
Mandates.
Higher taxes and regulations.
Continued 2 tier legal system.
But they are anti trump!
Holy hell, are they ACTUALLY trying to pull that?
And, from the never-to-be-listened-to podcast “libertarians were right”? About what? Nothing of note…ever.
Hey, Washington has a no-shit reparations law. Libertarianism Adapted for Modern Audiences!
Isn’t the answer to questions in headlines always “no”?
Don’t forget about all those ids they want to ‘transition’ behind parent’s backs.
>>Trump’s Independent Voter Problem
dude who will never be on a ballot again has independent voter problem.
If he doesn’t watch out they’ll all vote for Vance instead in 2028.
Libertarian Moment inbound in 2028… this time we mean it.
Trump won’t be running again, but his economically damaging flailing around with tarrifs and trade policy will ruin the midterms for Republicans. The Democrats will retake both houses of Congress.
Since we’re making prognostications, what if they don’t? What if Trump’s tariff war successfully eliminates the tens of thousands of tariffs other nations currently hold against the US?
What if his economic flailing will ruin it for Republicans the way vaccine passports, port closures and supply chain issues, ending fracking… or not, and “reject the Trump vaccine, get the Pfizer-Moderna vaccine” materialized 81 million votes?
There’s not time for that before the midterms. The disruption is already in the pipeline and can’t be stopped. The world’s economic supply chains can’t be turned on a dime. The Covid fascists made the same mistake, thinking they could throw a switch and turn the economy back on after they “paused” it.
You say this as though;
A) You believe Reason and the media.
B) Marginal tariff increases for some countries is disproportionately more effective than shutting down bars, Churches, ports, schools, meat packing plants, hospitals, automobile plants, vodka distilleries, etc., etc., etc.
C) Two actual weeks-to-months of marginal tariff increases against *some* countries is, again, approximately as deleterious both to the economy and the American perception as “two weeks” that actually turned out to be closer to two years of shutdowns.
I’m certainly not predicting any sort of Red Wave, but your take contains a hefty dose of TDS and buying into, if not carrying water for, media “BOAF SIDEZ!”ism.
As Zeb and others have pointed out, Trump’s brinksmanship on trade and stance on immigration isn’t out of the norm for 20-30 yrs. ago. The difference is that 20-30 yrs. ago it was all done behind closed doors in embassies and the Walter Cronkites of the world invariably reported it favorably or in a box-score, matter-of-fact fashion.
Remember when Biden threatened to use airstrikes against domestic gun owners? Remember when he threatened to blow up NS1 and 2? If you think 100% tariffs against a country are some sort of out of bounds “What if campaign promises and offhand threats became real?” existential threat, that’s your anti-Trump bias talking.
Well, I hope that is what happens. I’m not all that optimistic at this point, but will be happy to be proven wrong.
>>Are the Democrats pushing a libertarian-ish agenda?
lol “ish” … stop doing this for money
I also exclusively look for fish in the sky.
this is very funny.
Libertarians don’t read books. That would merely be submitting to the tyranny of an author who decides what the words mean.
JFucked is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Like you do when you read your dog eared copy of ‘Mein Kampf’, right JewFree?
“subtly libertarian” is Nick Gillespie’s nickname at the Southern California Journolisming awards.
So those libertarian critiques were suddenly vindicated in 2025? I guess libertarians like ate too many gummies for the preceding five years.
Why does Reason write and podcast about Libertarianism?
They don’t actually.
Ha, yes…that was the point I was attempting to make. They don’t.
“16:52—Are the Democrats pushing a libertarian-ish agenda?”
Hahahahahahaha, yall can’t help yourselves, can you?
It’s like bitching that Reagan was too authoritarian while praising Brezhnev’s libertarian tendencies.
The #1 disconnect between most of us and the writers (some of whom are 100% screaming at us in the comments through socks) is they think there is the possibility that the left can be reasoned with. Well that and, like the libertarian subreddit, some leftist really do think they are the standard bearers of liberty, even while pushing totalitarianism.
they think there is the possibility that the left can be reasoned with.
It took COVID fascism to disabuse me of that idea. I lost relationships with friends and family members trying reason with them about that. Facts and reasoning can’t penetrate their hate, envy, and entitlement.
I would love to talk to fruitcakes like Boehm, Sullum, etc. in person. Although they would never have the guts to do that.
It would be fun to verbally dress them down until they run sobbing from the room.
Has anyone on Reason> done this before?
It’s like the repeated queries about (e.g.) “what if the incels were in charge of capitalism?” or “what if Christians subverted capitalism?” Where, otherwise, capitalism is an indominable global force that will crush any/all physical and/or legal constraints regardless of their power… *except* Christianity or *except* The Jones Act or *except* abortion or whatever.
Capitalism and free trade is more powerful than Superman and Green Lantern combined, but just chooses not to free the Uyghyrs or N. Korea or Myanmar or Venezuela or Ukrainians or Russians or really anyone down to even private Dutch farmers… and, despite the phenomenal cosmic power “it chooses” not to wield, Donald Trump is it’s Sinestro and American Conservatism are it’s kryptonite. All because of those damned Conservative Christians and their sky daddy beliefs.
It looks like the AIDS is taking its toll on poor Fonzie.
Coke bloat.
Hey, I used to have turkey/mayo rollups all the time. A nutritiohist finally talked me out of cold cuts as a staple.
What did they suggest as an alternative?
These U-shaped pieces of metal. They come on boxes of thousands of them, depending on the size.
Doesn’t sound very appetizing, though possibly high in iron.
>Are the Democrats pushing a libertarian-ish agenda?
Only if you consider reflexive anti-Trumpism, importing alien criminals, leaving normal people to be prey to criminals homegrown and foreign, and pushing age-inappropriate lessons in public schools, to be ‘libertarian’, sure.
In other words, sarcasmic.
>Food Freedom Is Personal Freedom
Well, *this* certainly isn’t a democratic position.
I also wonder how the Democratic Party – the party that *doesn’t believe in personal freedom* – could be libertarian?
How about hiring someone to type a transcript of these podcasts?
No one is stopping you from doing that.
Nick, you are degrading yourself. Almost all comments don’t take you seriously nor should they. It’s highschool journalism to title it ‘Rejedting Trump” and putting a question mark , Yikes, embarrassing. you will be doing the cooking column soon unless you get professional
I don’t resist the label “Independent” but I am not like many of them. They want 100% agreement and mostly make up an army of one-man-parties, they don’t have any idea of prudence, or compromise, or give-and-take. you might find X Independents seeming to agree Trump is wrong on something but immediately you get to ‘why’ or what they want in its stead they are miles apart.
Watch what happens on that SCOTUS case about parents opting their kids out of perverse gay and other classes.
Watch the logic here…First the data
“Justice Kagan and Justice Sotomayor expressed concerns about the potential for broad opt-out requests and the difficulty in drawing lines to define acceptable limits. ”
Now that is admission that neither believes there is NO opt-out . Further they must see the current case has merit or they wouldn’t be talking about drawing a line.
ERGO because of things that haven’t happened they are refusing to rule on what has happened. This is the self-contradiction of Independents : I “know” something is currently wrong but because I can’t fully express it I am tending to let a injustice continue
True independents are skeptical, but reserving judgement.
Nick is not a true independent, but rather 180 degrees opposed.
People like Nick, didn’t reserve judgement, to wait and see, but rather made a decision prior to election day that they would oppose Trump regardless of the position.
A true independent, realizes that politicians are a mixed bag of good and bad. Realize that the politician, is rarely the most important element of change, but rather the supporters of the politician.
Nick may believe that the MAGA/MAHA movement is brain dead, but in reality it is much more alive and diverse that Nick’s love of the establishment, albeit a libertarian version of the establishment.
A true independent, realizes that Trump is deeply flawed, however not as deeply flawed as Harris or Biden are. That Trump was a poor choice, but still less of a disastrous choice that Harris or Biden. Not a glowing recommendation, but a realization that as bad as Trump may be, it could have been much worse.
For me, I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris, however grateful that Harris didn’t win. I can tolerate Trump, with his transparent and accessible loudness, which is much better than the hidden and absent Biden. Trump has been more available in 100 days, than Biden was over 4 years and you could also include the 8 years he was VP.
Most people like Nick, hate his brashness, his loudness, his style. For people outside of New York in Fly-Over Country, we get tired of all New Yorker’s who have a very similar narcissistic loudness. At least Trump is more relatable with the common person, than the typical New Yorker Elitist.
While it may be a surprise to Nick and the other New Yorker Elitists, the draw that Trump has with the common person, but as a true independent, it’s fairly easy to see that Trump is authentic and even will all his warts, is more palatable than the phoniness of the corporate media and the typical politician.
Trump may be getting a C+, but it’s better than the D- we would of had with Harris.
Trump strikes me more as a c++ kind of guy
Mr Father knew your type and often said ‘the world is run by C students’ — which people like you don’t see is a criticism of SCHOOLS not of people. You might be an A student but you aren’t Trump and maybe some real envy is exposed in your opinion.
I don’t know that I’d consider Trump as a “true independent.” He is, at best, just not a career politician and I guess that has some merit. The problem I have with Trump is that I’ve been out of junior high school for over fifty years and Trump’s persona and manner makes me think he never left.
I too did not vote for either Trump or Harris this past election cycle. I just could not, in good conscience, vote for either of them. Sadly, in the twelve presidential elections I’ve voted in I’ve only voted three times for a candidate vs voting against the other candidate(s). I’m done with having to choose the lesser of two evils.
I’m done with having to choose the lesser of two evils.
Unless you had a gun in your mouth and pulled the trigger immediately after posting, no you aren’t. Choosing the available good over the unavailable perfect, or even among several available near-peer goods over unattainable nearer-to-perfect options is a daily occurrence for all rational creatures. I was something like 6 the first time I heard “Free Will” from Rush. It’s easily and readily recognizable, even by exceedingly libertarian standards that choosing NOTA between good and bad options (or even two good options) doesn’t exculpate anyone from the consequences of the bad option. Choosing not to brush your teeth rather than use cinnamon toothpaste or no toothpaste at all doesn’t fix or prevent tooth decay. Grow up.
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
Learn to read. I never said I didn’t vote. I said I did not vote for Biden or Harris.
Learn to read.
I didn’t say anything about voting. You actually said “I’m done with having to choose the lesser of two evils.”, to which I replied “Unless you blew your own head off, you’re still choosing between the lesser of two evils.”
Finally, an independent voter who grasps the concept of law-changing spoiler vote clout. “Among the extremely yielding persons we found a group who quickly reached the conclusion: “I am wrong, they are right.” Others yielded in order “not to spoil your results.” Many of the individuals who went along [with the lie] suspected that the majority were “sheep” following the first responder, or that the majority were victims of an optical illusion; nevertheless these suspicions failed to free them at the moment of decision.” –Opinions and Social Pressure, 1955. All who try to bully someone into throwing a vote away on looters are cowards and liars. That is the experimentally proven fact.
Trump may be getting a C+, but it’s better than the
D-burning down of the school we would of had with Harris.Trump is just a 70s => 90s Democrat.
People like Nick, didn’t reserve judgement, to wait and see, but rather made a decision prior to election day in 2015 that they would oppose Trump regardless of the position.
Again, between strict political views and positions and political context, Trump was in pretty solid company between Ross Perot and Bill Clinton. He was certainly not so far afield as Bernie Sanders, which several Reason contributors did a bit of “Libertarian case for” heavy lifting on behalf of.
And they absolutely hosed him with vitriol first for having the audacity to run and then for having the audacity to dare appeal to bitter clingers and deplorables.
As indicated above and in accordance with Chesterton; they didn’t stop believing in a God or Gods, they just substituted poor understanding of and fervent wishcasting via “Democracy”, “Diversity”, “Free Trade”, and “Capitalism” for “Athena”, “Zeus”, “Jesus”, and “Yahweh”.
Trump is still really popular with people who don’t read the news and Fox/OneAmerica information voters. They really think that tax cuts they will never see (because they don’t make any money) are not going to impact their Medicaid, Medicare, VA benefits or SNAP money. They’ve seen their small towns decimated by factory closures and think Trump can bring these back.
They don’t realize that those widget and sneaker factories aren’t coming back even with 200% tariffs. Factories are much more automated now, no one is studying manufacturing technology anymore in the U.S., and you can’t live on minimum wage in the U.S. (especially if you can’t get Medicaid or SNAP). You’d need to pay lower-tech factory workers minimum wage to come near to the price of making stuff in Asia.
For high-tech manufacturing we’re handicapped because the smartest tech people go into finance to make $$$ rather than engineering. It’s hard to staff a chip factory now. Plus Trump doesn’t want to subsidize anything to kick start chips in the U.S.
Trump will back off on lots of the tariffs as soon as enough big donors get sick of this. We’ll still get washing machines parts from Mexico and auto parts from China, Mexico and South Korea because the supply chains aren’t here and can’t migrate for more than 4 years. By then we’ll have some more Koch-like republicans in office who want their foreign stocks to go up.
The comments show 70 screeching , ordure-flinging Jesus Caucus Trumpanzee MAGAts desperate to keep anyone else from appreciating how Libertarian Party spoiler votes repealed ordurous laws for half a century. ALL evade precisely that main topic and the accelerating growth of non-Kleptocracy voters. Heck, even Nick is acquiring a graphic artist perception of the mathematical trend and getting it across. Both halves of the monotofilament strand running from Stalinist Socialism to Christian National Socialism are clearly terrified over which the LP will defeat next. Good work, Reason!
Sitting around the ol’ lava lamp badmouthing Nixon rednecks, someone asked “what will our kids come up with that’ll horrify us?” Nobody suggested “join Eric Frank Russell in trying to convince the world anarchy can mean something other than violent murdering communist bombers.” Along comes Katherine Mangu-Ward on precisely that mission–the infant terrible nobody predicted. And damned if SHE doesn’t come off as sane and reasonable compared to even the best and brightest of the LeftAnRight looters. It’s a New Dawn…
Peter looks at a flat line from Stalinist Holomodor socialism to Hitlerite Holocaust socialism and wonders why folks who see THAT keep trying one, spitting it out, trying the other, spitting THAT out and back and forth. Instead, why not look for and against at values like economic freedom and individual rights. That’s what the LP did and went from 4000 to 17000 to 100000 votes over an 8-year span. If you look at a 4-panel grid and call it LeftAnRite, folks keep on imagining a line scratched on the ground, not the areas above or below it. The Trumpanzee commentariat exemplifies the result. Their rent seekers fear that factor of 25 happening again.
Here we are. The topic is independent voters, right? Here’s what social pressure measurements show: As long as the subject [voter] had anyone on his side, he was almost invariably independent, but as soon as he found himself alone, the tendency to conform to the majority rose abuptly. –Opinions and Social Pressure, 1955. This explains why the looters are so desperate to flood all fora with the stench of disapproval and steer for all points off-topic. Once people realize that BOTH of the looter parties want to rob and enslave them, the spell is broken. Looters lose their jobs, pelf, power and payola if non-looter opinions are aired.
The constant annoying claim that “I am an Independent” is a form of “look at me!!!” Who cares what you are in general !! In some question about a specific course of action I want morals , reasoning, data, wisdom. Who cares whether you are an Indpendent 😉
What has happened to Nick in these past months
A majority of Americans say the country is on the right track for the first time in decades, according to new polling —
Independents ? WHO GIVES A SHIT, are you really going to qualify an explosion of confidence with some lame outlier like that